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Saturday, August 23rd 2008, 11:07pm
RE: water quality
Hey, what did you find out about using drip in your hard water? I'm curious...
Obviously you can use drip irrigation with hard water, it's just a question of how long before things like calcium deposits begin to form.
I have hard water (centeral AL) where over the years we see the calcium buildup on things like shower heads and faucets and shower doors. So far I've been using various drip products (drip emmitters in some places, mini-sprinklers in others, etc) and at least after two to three years of use haven't noticed any calcium buildup that's hurting performant (I've only had to replace one "spinner" out of two dozen so far that was getting stuck, and I couldn't directly link it to calcium problems).
However, the way I laid out my irrigation system was to use underground pvc to get water to the flower beds, then use copper to transition from underground to above ground. I use an elbow and female adapters right at the surface to keep it all low and out of the way. Everything after the copper can be redily replaced when ever needed.
Sunday, August 24th 2008, 2:08am
Thanks, but more info requested
Thanks HookooDooKu:
Yes, I understand everything can be replaced. Why replace it (environment, cost, time etc) when if you plan you can avoid the problems. Austin sits on caliche chalk, its waters high in CaCO3.
When considering any system, planning is the key. Our poster mentioned misters. Does he know how often he will have to replace them. Living in DFW, I replaced my humidity misters in the greenhouse twice a year, and they were brass, with 200 mesh filtration.
Alternatively, if deposits are a true problem in his environment, he can plan his system to avoid such high maintenance items. I mentioned flag emitters, which are easy to diassemble and clean any deposits out. They then are reuseable. Even the Turbo emitters will start malfunctioning after a relatively short time in this water, and even with disassemby and reassembly, many tend to drip at a higher rate (leak). How does netafim CV hold up in calcific waters? I know from personal experience soakers work with some limitations.
I'm trying to make a point. My design information from Puget Sound is not necessarily going to work as well for him, as maybe a neighbor's who has tried drip, and can give him more pertainent insight. I've gardened in many places, including North Carolina, where they have hard water, but not to the same degree as from "The Austin Chalk". He mentioned he has a water softener on his house. Much of the nation has "hard" water, some is harder than others. I fear the poster has some of the worse hard water in the nation. (although I have herd Arizona can be bad too.)
I just want him and others to be sucessful with drip irrigation.
Keep dripp'in
Jeff
Yes, I understand everything can be replaced. Why replace it (environment, cost, time etc) when if you plan you can avoid the problems. Austin sits on caliche chalk, its waters high in CaCO3.
When considering any system, planning is the key. Our poster mentioned misters. Does he know how often he will have to replace them. Living in DFW, I replaced my humidity misters in the greenhouse twice a year, and they were brass, with 200 mesh filtration.
Alternatively, if deposits are a true problem in his environment, he can plan his system to avoid such high maintenance items. I mentioned flag emitters, which are easy to diassemble and clean any deposits out. They then are reuseable. Even the Turbo emitters will start malfunctioning after a relatively short time in this water, and even with disassemby and reassembly, many tend to drip at a higher rate (leak). How does netafim CV hold up in calcific waters? I know from personal experience soakers work with some limitations.
I'm trying to make a point. My design information from Puget Sound is not necessarily going to work as well for him, as maybe a neighbor's who has tried drip, and can give him more pertainent insight. I've gardened in many places, including North Carolina, where they have hard water, but not to the same degree as from "The Austin Chalk". He mentioned he has a water softener on his house. Much of the nation has "hard" water, some is harder than others. I fear the poster has some of the worse hard water in the nation. (although I have herd Arizona can be bad too.)
I just want him and others to be sucessful with drip irrigation.
Keep dripp'in
Jeff
Sunday, August 24th 2008, 12:48pm
Thank You
Sounds great. Don't know why you need a master valve, but can't hurt. I can picture you soaking disassembled emitter parts in vinegar and trying to srub off the deposits with a tooth brush. You would have to get inside the emitters to remove the calcium. Never had much luck with the vinegar methods, but maybe...
You mentioned catchement. Great idea, and totally removes hardness issues. However, has pressure issues. Since you only gain 0.43 PSI per foot of head, you might want to put a second set of PVC in that hard to dig ground when it is open, so you can easily shift form city water to the catchement, but leave both systems in place for dry spells. Other option is a small pump to raise the catchment water to a least 15 PSI after friction losses. It you plan to use gravity, You need to raise catvchment to supply at least 2 PSI at the beds. So with friction loss, the bottom of the tank needs to be at a minimum about 5 feet above you highest emitter. You certainly don't want to loose any more pressure with valves and pressure reducers, so I suggest one filter, and manual full bore ball valves (Like 3/4 inch). They sell nice 1/4 turn brass ball valves (FPT to MHT) at L*wes for $8, or brass ball valve from numerous sources in MPT for about the same price. Full bore 3/4 inch means the opening is 3/4 inch in the ball when you look thru it.
A separate system, because it has special pressure needs and special emitters.
Useing 4 or 8 GPH emitters allows you to run as low as 2 PSI and get 1 GPH delivery. Tape systems (T-Tape, RhoDrip, AquaaTraxx) allow good row coverage, is cheap (although disposable into environment
), and operate on as low as 2 PSI.
Or, KISS and use a pump on the existing system. You seem like gadget guy, so may want to play with both ideas.
SO, put a second set of pipes in where you think you might need them. Bigger is always better, and 3/4 inch sch 40 PVC (don't use anything thinner wall if you are going to be digging in the area) @ 4 GPm = 240 GPH loses 1.42 PSI per 100 feet (plus more for fittings). So, not knowing distances, this is significant if yo are working with low PSI top start with. Using 1 inch sch 40 PVC, your loss at the same flow rate goes down to 0.44PSI/ 100 feet. So, even in low volume irrigation, at low pressure, bigger is better.
Finally, instead of using copper, you can use schedule 80 PVC above the ground. The concern is that PVC becomes brittle when exposed to sunlight. Copper does not. Copper, and it's fitings are expensive,asnd shoud be sweated rather than epoxy'ed. Also copper, is a real pressure killer, although in short sections probably not too much an issue. Stil the best for duration, lack of internal rusting, and appearance. PVC becomes brittle, but you can get at least 10 years out of schedule 40 in Texas sun. Longer with sch 80. Look for threaded pieces of Schedule 80 where the sell the risers for irrigaion, they are Grey. The brittleness issue is why PVC electrical conduit is gray colored, BTW, Black PE tubing used in drip has carbon black impregnated to make it MORE UV resistant. Last longest if covered with mulch to shield it from your intense sunlight.
Sounds like you are having fun. Planning is alway a blast (which is one reason I do this). But from experience, ditch digging (especially in Texas Gumbo in the heat) is not so fun. Watch out for fire ants
Addenum. Flag emitters are good for gravity systems. So you can use them and maybe get away with one system. Electric valves eat pressure, and you need to make sure they will open at low pressure/flow rates. So, a master valve may not be a good idea. If you plan to use one pipe for everything, consider up sizing to 1 inch. In irrigation, "Bigger Is Better". eMail me for other ideas.
Jeff
You mentioned catchement. Great idea, and totally removes hardness issues. However, has pressure issues. Since you only gain 0.43 PSI per foot of head, you might want to put a second set of PVC in that hard to dig ground when it is open, so you can easily shift form city water to the catchement, but leave both systems in place for dry spells. Other option is a small pump to raise the catchment water to a least 15 PSI after friction losses. It you plan to use gravity, You need to raise catvchment to supply at least 2 PSI at the beds. So with friction loss, the bottom of the tank needs to be at a minimum about 5 feet above you highest emitter. You certainly don't want to loose any more pressure with valves and pressure reducers, so I suggest one filter, and manual full bore ball valves (Like 3/4 inch). They sell nice 1/4 turn brass ball valves (FPT to MHT) at L*wes for $8, or brass ball valve from numerous sources in MPT for about the same price. Full bore 3/4 inch means the opening is 3/4 inch in the ball when you look thru it.
A separate system, because it has special pressure needs and special emitters.
Useing 4 or 8 GPH emitters allows you to run as low as 2 PSI and get 1 GPH delivery. Tape systems (T-Tape, RhoDrip, AquaaTraxx) allow good row coverage, is cheap (although disposable into environment
), and operate on as low as 2 PSI. Or, KISS and use a pump on the existing system. You seem like gadget guy, so may want to play with both ideas.
SO, put a second set of pipes in where you think you might need them. Bigger is always better, and 3/4 inch sch 40 PVC (don't use anything thinner wall if you are going to be digging in the area) @ 4 GPm = 240 GPH loses 1.42 PSI per 100 feet (plus more for fittings). So, not knowing distances, this is significant if yo are working with low PSI top start with. Using 1 inch sch 40 PVC, your loss at the same flow rate goes down to 0.44PSI/ 100 feet. So, even in low volume irrigation, at low pressure, bigger is better.
Finally, instead of using copper, you can use schedule 80 PVC above the ground. The concern is that PVC becomes brittle when exposed to sunlight. Copper does not. Copper, and it's fitings are expensive,asnd shoud be sweated rather than epoxy'ed. Also copper, is a real pressure killer, although in short sections probably not too much an issue. Stil the best for duration, lack of internal rusting, and appearance. PVC becomes brittle, but you can get at least 10 years out of schedule 40 in Texas sun. Longer with sch 80. Look for threaded pieces of Schedule 80 where the sell the risers for irrigaion, they are Grey. The brittleness issue is why PVC electrical conduit is gray colored, BTW, Black PE tubing used in drip has carbon black impregnated to make it MORE UV resistant. Last longest if covered with mulch to shield it from your intense sunlight.
Sounds like you are having fun. Planning is alway a blast (which is one reason I do this). But from experience, ditch digging (especially in Texas Gumbo in the heat) is not so fun. Watch out for fire ants
Addenum. Flag emitters are good for gravity systems. So you can use them and maybe get away with one system. Electric valves eat pressure, and you need to make sure they will open at low pressure/flow rates. So, a master valve may not be a good idea. If you plan to use one pipe for everything, consider up sizing to 1 inch. In irrigation, "Bigger Is Better". eMail me for other ideas.
Jeff
This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Lowvolumejeff" (Aug 24th 2008, 1:04pm)
Sunday, August 24th 2008, 9:59pm
RE: Thank You
...Don't know why you need a master valve, but can't hurt...
The idea behind the master valve was so that only ONE PVC pressure regulator could be used. As I understand, these PVC pressure regulators are supposed to be installed AFTER the control valves so that they are not under constant pressure. So without a master valve, you should be installing one after EACH valve.
Master valves can hurt in that I've heard (www.irrigationtutorials.com) if nothing else its POSSIBLE for a master valve to cause problems with all the valves closing properly (perhaps exascerbating the issue you can have with valves closing under low flow conditions.
Another alternative, however, would be to install a copper/brass pressure regulator before the valves. Little more expensive, but obviously simplifies things.
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